West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

I wonder how D2 can pump up the attendance? They have a really good product in basketball, both in coaching and in team play, if the top teams in the MEC and PSAC are any indication.
If you ignore the the fact that the players are not quite as tall or quick as D1, the rest of their game is often superior.
The prices are much more family friendly.
Maybe advertising D2 victories over D1 teams in exhibition? I think a lot of folks think there is a huge drop off between D1 and top D2 schools.
Augustana beat Iowa in Nov 2015 (year they won national title).
Thomas Acquinas blew out St. Johns by 30 in 2015.
Findlay beat ohio State in 2006? (the season BEFORE findlay went unbeaten and won the national title). OSU had no answer for Marcus Parker a great point guard, who was just a little short for D1.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

"... rest of their game is often superior"

Huh? Low-end D1 is similar to, say, Top 15 D2. Top-end D1 teams would blow top-end D2 teams out of the arena.

Put up this year's Fairmont up against NC or Gonzaga. They lose by 40. Maybe more. Or WL vs WVU ... same result.

You may see the occasional miracle but the best D2 teams would 'maybe' be .500 in even the Horizon League. The jump is extreme ... especially to the P5.

We're all D2 fans but most of these guys are in D2 for a reason. The size, speed and depth would just wear D2 teams down very quickly.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[QUOTE=IUPbigINDIANS;2041004]"... rest of their game is often superior"

Huh? Low-end D1 is similar to, say, Top 15 D2. Top-end D1 teams would blow top-end D2 teams out of the arena.

Put up this year's Fairmont up against NC or Gonzaga. They lose by 40. Maybe more. Or WL vs WVU ... same result.

You may see the occasional miracle but the best D2 teams would 'maybe' be .500 in even the Horizon League. The jump is extreme ... especially to the P5.

We're all D2 fans but most of these guys are in D2 for a reason. The size, speed and depth would just wear D2 teams down very quickly.[/QUOTE


I agree with your statement on the elite d1 teams with great coaches. I just gave examples of non bottom d1 teams losing in exhibition. Iowa was 3rd in big 10 and finished #25 in AP. The advantages of d1 teams are undeniable. The vulnerabilities of some d1 teams are: they don't value every possession. They often don't play great team defense to teams who rotate the ball rapidly. D2 team needs to have a great 3pt shooting night to offset the dunks.
Pure speculation but I think many d1 fans think there is a huge gap between ANY d1 team and even the best d2 teams. and maybe they don't attend for that reason. Thinking that listing victories might help at least for top d2 teams. Probably a long shot.

[IUP Extra Mile]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[QUOTE=Columbuseer;2041026]

"... rest of their game is often superior"

Huh? Low-end D1 is similar to, say, Top 15 D2. Top-end D1 teams would blow top-end D2 teams out of the arena.

Put up this year's Fairmont up against NC or Gonzaga. They lose by 40. Maybe more. Or WL vs WVU ... same result.

You may see the occasional miracle but the best D2 teams would 'maybe' be .500 in even the Horizon League. The jump is extreme ... especially to the P5.

We're all D2 fans but most of these guys are in D2 for a reason. The size, speed and depth would just wear D2 teams down very quickly.[/QUOTE


I agree with your statement on the elite d1 teams with great coaches. I just gave examples of non bottom d1 teams losing in exhibition. Iowa was 3rd in big 10 and finished #25 in AP. The advantages of d1 teams are undeniable. The vulnerabilities of some d1 teams are: they don't value every possession. They often don't play great team defense to teams who rotate the ball rapidly. D2 team needs to have a great 3pt shooting night to offset the dunks.
Pure speculation but I think many d1 fans think there is a huge gap between ANY d1 team and even the best d2 teams. and maybe they don't attend for that reason. Thinking that listing victories might help at least for top d2 teams. Probably a long shot.

I've always contended that a D2 game btw 2 good teams is just as good as a D1 game.....Not saying that D2 would beat D1, but the shooting, the fluidness of the game, can be better at D2, I think...but fans don't know or identify with the D2 schools bc they are local / regional...and never on tv...so it's an uphill battle...I think the product is good, and the normal schmoe doesn't realize how good D2 players are...

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

I don't trust DII attendance figures. WLU basketball is a prime example. I've been to games were it is very close to standing room only...official attendance in the box score the next day showed 500 people! There also doesn't seem to be any consistency with what a school counts as attendance. I recall a WVIAC school a number of years ago that reported attendance in the neighborhood of 5000 per game...that seemed to fly in the face of pictures of the stand which were largely empty (no where near 5000!). Turns out they were counting tickets given to a local fast food chain that were given away as part of a meal purchase.

[KnightStalker]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

"... rest of their game is often superior"

Huh? Low-end D1 is similar to, say, Top 15 D2. Top-end D1 teams would blow top-end D2 teams out of the arena.

Put up this year's Fairmont up against NC or Gonzaga. They lose by 40. Maybe more. Or WL vs WVU ... same result.

You may see the occasional miracle but the best D2 teams would 'maybe' be .500 in even the Horizon League. The jump is extreme ... especially to the P5.

We're all D2 fans but most of these guys are in D2 for a reason. The size, speed and depth would just wear D2 teams down very quickly.

Bellarmine beat Xavier in 2010-2011 season (BU's championship year), Xavier was in the Sweet 16 that year and consistently in the AP top 25. Not to be a fluke but the next season BU lost to Xavier but had a chance to win on the last possession. Both games were at Xavier. D2 schools never get a chance to host a D1 school (except Chaminade and Alaska-Anchorage) so they are always at a disadvantage. I'm not saying they could hang with the top teams of D1 every time but there are occasions where some of the top D2 teams could play with the big boys. Your top d1 teams do have the advantage in speed and size (and in some places academic fraud, cough, cough) but sometimes the cohesion of a "team" that has been around together for four years can overcome it.

[IUP24]

People don't show up to D2 games because people don't want to. It's that simple. It's not complicated. Like what was posted above, nobody identifies themselves with D2 schools. You think Grand Valley State football fans pull for the Lakers first? Above Michigan or Michigan State? Come on.

This topic of discussion has been going on for years on the PSAC Football side of the board. The fact is that people don't care. You'll never win a discussion with anybody that's not a religious D2 viewer when comparing products.

Consider this, the people on this message board are their respective schools biggest fans. And what, there's a handful of the same posters from the same schools that are frequent posters here. That tells you all you need to know.


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[ironmaniup]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

The fact is that people don't care. You'll never win a discussion with anybody that's not a religious D2 viewer when comparing products.

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True, I've done the - you can get much closer to the action, the untrained observers can't tell the difference in quality, games are often closer and more exciting, the players are doing it for the love of the game, and so the sport is true amateur, more pure. nothing works. There is either a community connection with the team or there is not, and you can't make that connection over night.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

People don't show up to D2 games because people don't want to. It's that simple. It's not complicated. Like what was posted above, nobody identifies themselves with D2 schools. You think Grand Valley State football fans pull for the Lakers first? Above Michigan or Michigan State? Come on.

This topic of discussion has been going on for years on the PSAC Football side of the board. The fact is that people don't care. You'll never win a discussion with anybody that's not a religious D2 viewer when comparing products.

Consider this, the people on this message board are their respective schools biggest fans. And what, there's a handful of the same posters from the same schools that are frequent posters here. That tells you all you need to know.


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I agree in general. A DII is never going to "win" the fan base battle with a name D1. But beyond that, it seems like there is a huge disconnect between what most DII's do to market themselves locally and what even local HS's do. Most DII's are near some sort of small population center with a couple of others in the area. A successful DII should be targeting those population centers with gusto...they should partner with every chamber of commerse, VFW and Moose Lodge to promote their programs and get the local population to the games...every HS player of ANY sport should have a FREE ticket to every home game...Once at the game, people should have ample opportunity to tailgate WITH the schools ACTIVE involvement and support.

Are DII's going to always struggle to put butts in seats? Yea, most of the time they will. Bust it seems like most DII athletic departments have given up and have decided there is just nothing they can do.

[Layton]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

I don't trust DII attendance figures. WLU basketball is a prime example. I've been to games were it is very close to standing room only...official attendance in the box score the next day showed 500 people! There also doesn't seem to be any consistency with what a school counts as attendance. I recall a WVIAC school a number of years ago that reported attendance in the neighborhood of 5000 per game...that seemed to fly in the face of pictures of the stand which were largely empty (no where near 5000!). Turns out they were counting tickets given to a local fast food chain that were given away as part of a meal purchase.

I know us students just walk in so we aren't counted in the attendance

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

I agree in general. A DII is never going to "win" the fan base battle with a name D1. But beyond that, it seems like there is a huge disconnect between what most DII's do to market themselves locally and what even local HS's do. Most DII's are near some sort of small population center with a couple of others in the area. A successful DII should be targeting those population centers with gusto...they should partner with every chamber of commerse, VFW and Moose Lodge to promote their programs and get the local population to the games...every HS player of ANY sport should have a FREE ticket to every home game...Once at the game, people should have ample opportunity to tailgate WITH the schools ACTIVE involvement and support.

Are DII's going to always struggle to put butts in seats? Yea, most of the time they will. Bust it seems like most DII athletic departments have given up and have decided there is just nothing they can do.

Good ideas and food for thought. Draw a 25 mile radius around the school and target those schools and towns first. Might be a good senior project for advertising and marketing majors. Given the quality of play of the top 20 D2 schools, I also wonder if some DII Athletic departments have also gotten frustrated and given up. However, it is easy for me to say that, since I have not walked a mile in their shoes (budget and staffing limitations). Challenge is can you make the game an "event" without spending much $?

[Sportsnut]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

I like that idea Boat of giving high school athletes free passes. If you got 200 high school students in free what they spent on the concession would probably be more revenue than what you would receive in the gate admissions for a few that might show up for the game if paid. Plus free publicity for the school. A drawback and would probably have to be addressed would be from the current students who pay an athletic fee in their tuition. If the students have to pay the athletic fee and the high school students get free I see big problems!

[IUP24]

Honestly, when this topic inevitably pops up again on the PSAC board in 6 months, I'll be sure to hop back over here and invite you all to join the discussion.

Nothing that's been said here hasn't been suggested from PSAC posters. In fact, the whole "free ticket" idea has happened before at a couple schools. IUP does it once or twice for basketball games a year. That helps to a degree, but no school is going to give away free tickets to every game like that. Multiple schools in the PSAC, IUP included, have done something where you can have one paying adult bring in as many children under 12 as they want for free. That never worked at IUP. Maybe something will work at an MEC school, but none of those things have changed anything in the PSAC.

I was part of a student group at IUP that spent a lot of time, energy, and effort trying to boost student attendance. Some things we did worked, early on at least. Blast advertising on social media and things. That grabs people initially, but for football, especially when the weather gets colder you aren't ever going to succeed in bringing people in.

We held multiple focus groups where we tried to identify what the real issues were, and the common theme was that D2 wasn't D1. While you may have chosen your college after high school, you were raised as a fan of some D1 program since before you could walk, and it's tough to make that transition, especially at somewhere that doesn't have the atmosphere.

When you're talking student attendance, and I know that's not the only part of the discussion, but attendance is down at the Division 1 level too. It's true. Look it up. Students would rather sit in their dorm or apartment and flip between 6 different games on Saturday than show up to their own.


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[IUP24]

True, I've done the - you can get much closer to the action, the untrained observers can't tell the difference in quality, games are often closer and more exciting, the players are doing it for the love of the game, and so the sport is true amateur, more pure. nothing works. There is either a community connection with the team or there is not, and you can't make that connection over night.

Spot on. In football, with the exception of Shepard, Cal is the most decorated team in the region in the last 10 years. And look how bad their attendance was even when they were going on deep playoff runs annually.

The Indiana community adopted the school more than the California community has, but it's not as though Miller Stadium is near capacity every week either, so there's more to it than even that.

The fact is that people these days, at least the younger generation, want the big crowds and the atmosphere. You get more of that watching D1 football on your couch than you will being at a D2 game in person. Just the way it's viewed.


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[ctrabs74]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

I like that idea Boat of giving high school athletes free passes. If you got 200 high school students in free what they spent on the concession would probably be more revenue than what you would receive in the gate admissions for a few that might show up for the game if paid. Plus free publicity for the school. A drawback and would probably have to be addressed would be from the current students who pay an athletic fee in their tuition. If the students have to pay the athletic fee and the high school students get free I see big problems!

The only drawback is that such a plan to give high school students passes could get a school in trouble with the NCAA. In theory, it's a good idea to expand a fan base, but knowing the warped logic of the NCAA, this could be perceived as a recruiting tactic not permitted under NCAA rules.