OT: D1

[IUP24]

Well what college certainly shouldn't be about is the football tail wagging the academic dog. But I'm under no illusions about it. I have no problem with kids from problem backgrounds getting a shot at a degree, but the academic experience depicted at the schools in "Last Chance U." was not impressive in most cases. So in Independence you're playing a kid who has a "B" and four "Fs" well into the term, and then all of a sudden he miraculously gets those grades up at the end of the term by taking a few "quizzes." It's hard to believe these guys will come out of school with much of an education. Minority kids have a much better chance of becoming a doctor, lawyer, or businessman than an NFL or NBA player, but we'd rather invest in the ones who play sports.

Absolutely. Spot on.

I’m more or less using the examples seen in Last Chance U as the picture of how college sports can be the avenue for opportunities in a number of cases. I agree wholeheartedly with your position on the academic “experience” at the schools on that show. It’s not good. Terrible actually. These kids in the show learn nothing. They come out with a mostly junk degree. And they arguably never learned any skills that can be used.

I’m fine with college sports being the “out” for many people. That’s why so many great players came out of Western PA years ago. It was the way to avoid working in the mills.

And you’re right about minorities, or any race for that matter, being more successful in a chosen career path NOT related to professional athletics. I wish more used their gifts though on the playing field, and parlayed that into motivation to create a better life 30-40 years later, not just for the next 3-5. That’s the long game that not enough of these individuals can understand.

The degree is infinitely more valuable in life than an NIL deal or getting a few bucks to play a sport at 19-20.

Somewhere we got lost as a society pertaining to this stuff. I get the money is now out of control for collegiate athletics, and that’s never changing at this point; it’ll only get worse from here. But the upcoming return of NCAA football is exhibit A of this “go get yours!” culture that exists in the world and in sports in particular. EA Sports agreed to pay every player 500 bucks for their name, image, and likeness to be used in the game. Caleb Williams (who won’t be playing college football when the game is released in 2024 mind you) said that he will refuse to be included in the game. He stated 500 bucks is not a fair number for his worth, and many others. You see, Caleb Williams cares about himself and the other very few players of his ilk… Not the 3rd string offensive lineman for Rice or San Jose State, whose market value to EA Sports and the consumer likely isn’t even close to 500 bucks. But go figure, Williams is being backed by tons of fans, urging him to “stick it to the man.” We seem to care about Caleb Williams and those like him, not the others who are playing college football because they enjoy the sport and it was an opportunity to help them achieve a college degree.

I’m not sure where this all went off the rails. Nobody is making generational wealth for being included in a video game. Forget about the purity or sanctity of college sports (which has been gone forever). It still provides an opportunity for so many people to get an education who otherwise would’ve never gone to college, or may not have even had motivation to do so. That’s a GOOD thing. Somewhere along the way, that got lost in the constant pursuit of winning (for coaches) and making it to the NFL (for the players).

[IUPNation]

Well what college certainly shouldn't be about is the football tail wagging the academic dog. But I'm under no illusions about it. I have no problem with kids from problem backgrounds getting a shot at a degree, but the academic experience depicted at the schools in "Last Chance U." was not impressive in most cases. So in Independence you're playing a kid who has a "B" and four "Fs" well into the term, and then all of a sudden he miraculously gets those grades up at the end of the term by taking a few "quizzes." It's hard to believe these guys will come out of school with much of an education. Minority kids have a much better chance of becoming a doctor, lawyer, or businessman than an NFL or NBA player, but we'd rather invest in the ones who play sports.

Did any of this take place in the Mon Valley?

:-)

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Well what college certainly shouldn't be about is the football tail wagging the academic dog. But I'm under no illusions about it. I have no problem with kids from problem backgrounds getting a shot at a degree, but the academic experience depicted at the schools in "Last Chance U." was not impressive in most cases. So in Independence you're playing a kid who has a "B" and four "Fs" well into the term, and then all of a sudden he miraculously gets those grades up at the end of the term by taking a few "quizzes." It's hard to believe these guys will come out of school with much of an education. Minority kids have a much better chance of becoming a doctor, lawyer, or businessman than an NFL or NBA player, but we'd rather invest in the ones who play sports.

It is, end of the day, a television program -- a reality TV show of sorts. It needs drama and some controversy.

If it was simply JUCO Joe playing football and attending history class its ratings would stink and the show would be cancelled.

[Ship69]

It is, end of the day, a television program -- a reality TV show of sorts. It needs drama and some controversy.

If it was simply JUCO Joe playing football and attending history class its ratings would stink and the show would be cancelled.

Well, do you think the players' academic experience will be all that much better when the cameras are gone? I doubt it. What is amazing to me is that the schools and coaches were apparently fine with having cameras come in for what in many cases is a not so flattering look at their programs. As far as attending history class, that seems to be a problem for a lot of these kids, and from what I'm reading these days attendance seems to be an increasing problem at the high school level as well. It's a shame that so many schools think they have to establish an identity with a football team rather than academics, and of course that's not just confined to the juco circuit.

[Fightingscot82]

Absolutely. Spot on.

I’m more or less using the examples seen in Last Chance U as the picture of how college sports can be the avenue for opportunities in a number of cases. I agree wholeheartedly with your position on the academic “experience” at the schools on that show. It’s not good. Terrible actually. These kids in the show learn nothing. They come out with a mostly junk degree. And they arguably never learned any skills that can be used.

I’m fine with college sports being the “out” for many people. That’s why so many great players came out of Western PA years ago. It was the way to avoid working in the mills.

And you’re right about minorities, or any race for that matter, being more successful in a chosen career path NOT related to professional athletics. I wish more used their gifts though on the playing field, and parlayed that into motivation to create a better life 30-40 years later, not just for the next 3-5. That’s the long game that not enough of these individuals can understand.

The degree is infinitely more valuable in life than an NIL deal or getting a few bucks to play a sport at 19-20.

Somewhere we got lost as a society pertaining to this stuff. I get the money is now out of control for collegiate athletics, and that’s never changing at this point; it’ll only get worse from here. But the upcoming return of NCAA football is exhibit A of this “go get yours!” culture that exists in the world and in sports in particular. EA Sports agreed to pay every player 500 bucks for their name, image, and likeness to be used in the game. Caleb Williams (who won’t be playing college football when the game is released in 2024 mind you) said that he will refuse to be included in the game. He stated 500 bucks is not a fair number for his worth, and many others. You see, Caleb Williams cares about himself and the other very few players of his ilk… Not the 3rd string offensive lineman for Rice or San Jose State, whose market value to EA Sports and the consumer likely isn’t even close to 500 bucks. But go figure, Williams is being backed by tons of fans, urging him to “stick it to the man.” We seem to care about Caleb Williams and those like him, not the others who are playing college football because they enjoy the sport and it was an opportunity to help them achieve a college degree.

I’m not sure where this all went off the rails. Nobody is making generational wealth for being included in a video game. Forget about the purity or sanctity of college sports (which has been gone forever). It still provides an opportunity for so many people to get an education who otherwise would’ve never gone to college, or may not have even had motivation to do so. That’s a GOOD thing. Somewhere along the way, that got lost in the constant pursuit of winning (for coaches) and making it to the NFL (for the players).

Part of me thinks this will all flame out in a few years. The Knight Commission has recommended that FBS break away from the NCAA to an affiliate organization that hopefully convinces some G5 schools to go down to FCS football. I also think the NIL money will calm down once some big donors see its not exactly resulting in the on-field outcomes they intended. Big money NIL donor gets burned when his prize player gets arrested for something terrible. Players with big NIL payouts getting charged for failure to pay taxes. Then of course the lack of correlation between NIL money and winning.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Well, do you think the players' academic experience will be all that much better when the cameras are gone? I doubt it. What is amazing to me is that the schools and coaches were apparently fine with having cameras come in for what in many cases is a not so flattering look at their programs. As far as attending history class, that seems to be a problem for a lot of these kids, and from what I'm reading these days attendance seems to be an increasing problem at the high school level as well. It's a shame that so many schools think they have to establish an identity with a football team rather than academics, and of course that's not just confined to the juco circuit.

No, I don't think their academic experience will be better without the cameras. I don't think the school gives two craps about the students.

Academic culture today in high school is horrific. Teachers aren't allowed to do anything. Districts are terrified to let teachers discipline students. They are even more terrified to actually fail students.

There are high school players who are treated as Gods but who can but a Pepsi for $0.65, give you a dollar, and have no idea how much change they should get back. So, while the colleges are failing many of these athletes, their high schools basically set them up to fail.

As for the JUCO's letting the camera's in and painting them in a certain light ... my guess is they could care less. They aren't Harvard. The publicity they are getting from this show is likely worth millions of dollars. Look at Lackawanna. Hell, I think its purpose is to be a football developmental school. It needs the athletes to have success stories (as they do) and move up. Enter the next crop. They are getting tuition dollars somewhere.

Not saying it's right, but follow the dollars. Football drives the bus. The players, while here today, will be gone tomorrow -- with the next batch ready to move in.

Obviously there are exceptions -- Vanderbilt and Northwestern types, etc. But, there's way more intuitions that care more about winning a football game than actually making sure its students are educated. I think the dirty theme, end of the day, is keep them eligible. The how, why, ... is largely irrelevant.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Part of me thinks this will all flame out in a few years. The Knight Commission has recommended that FBS break away from the NCAA to an affiliate organization that hopefully convinces some G5 schools to go down to FCS football. I also think the NIL money will calm down once some big donors see its not exactly resulting in the on-field outcomes they intended. Big money NIL donor gets burned when his prize player gets arrested for something terrible. Players with big NIL payouts getting charged for failure to pay taxes. Then of course the lack of correlation between NIL money and winning.

Not sure I agree with you on this one. At the P5 level, the major donors are, well, mega ego maniacs. They aren't people used to losing in anything. The allure of buying the next collegiate Tim Tebow, etc., is an awful lot to walk away from. It's why coaches are by and large so dispensable. The next great one is (could be) just a big offer away. Until, of course, he flops. And then the next great one is just another giant check away. Hell, they buy some of them out for $15m just to go away.

This weekend is a great example. The heavy brass at Alabama vs the heavy brass at Texas. Can you imagine the money flowing in to these two programs? I think we look at giving a college player a million dollars as insanity. To these tycoons it's chump change. Winning games like this one is worth every cent to these types of donors.

The top of the P5 is in a completely different stratosphere compared to the rest of the NCAA. Those 8-10 teams might as well be a professional league.

End of the day schools know what winning does. It generates boatloads of cash.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Absolutely. Spot on.

I’m more or less using the examples seen in Last Chance U as the picture of how college sports can be the avenue for opportunities in a number of cases. I agree wholeheartedly with your position on the academic “experience” at the schools on that show. It’s not good. Terrible actually. These kids in the show learn nothing. They come out with a mostly junk degree. And they arguably never learned any skills that can be used.

I’m fine with college sports being the “out” for many people. That’s why so many great players came out of Western PA years ago. It was the way to avoid working in the mills.

And you’re right about minorities, or any race for that matter, being more successful in a chosen career path NOT related to professional athletics. I wish more used their gifts though on the playing field, and parlayed that into motivation to create a better life 30-40 years later, not just for the next 3-5. That’s the long game that not enough of these individuals can understand.

The degree is infinitely more valuable in life than an NIL deal or getting a few bucks to play a sport at 19-20.

Somewhere we got lost as a society pertaining to this stuff. I get the money is now out of control for collegiate athletics, and that’s never changing at this point; it’ll only get worse from here. But the upcoming return of NCAA football is exhibit A of this “go get yours!” culture that exists in the world and in sports in particular. EA Sports agreed to pay every player 500 bucks for their name, image, and likeness to be used in the game. Caleb Williams (who won’t be playing college football when the game is released in 2024 mind you) said that he will refuse to be included in the game. He stated 500 bucks is not a fair number for his worth, and many others. You see, Caleb Williams cares about himself and the other very few players of his ilk… Not the 3rd string offensive lineman for Rice or San Jose State, whose market value to EA Sports and the consumer likely isn’t even close to 500 bucks. But go figure, Williams is being backed by tons of fans, urging him to “stick it to the man.” We seem to care about Caleb Williams and those like him, not the others who are playing college football because they enjoy the sport and it was an opportunity to help them achieve a college degree.

I’m not sure where this all went off the rails. Nobody is making generational wealth for being included in a video game. Forget about the purity or sanctity of college sports (which has been gone forever). It still provides an opportunity for so many people to get an education who otherwise would’ve never gone to college, or may not have even had motivation to do so. That’s a GOOD thing. Somewhere along the way, that got lost in the constant pursuit of winning (for coaches) and making it to the NFL (for the players).

Well, I have two degrees. I've been in the work force for 20-some years. And, I by no means have 'generational wealth'.

I agree with Caleb Williams. The reigning Heisman winner and star QB at USC (Hollywood) is worth WAY more than $500. That offer is missing quite a few zeros. These guys aren't there for the 'betterment of college football players'. They are there to get paid. These stars can now make millions of dollars before they leave campus. Blow out a knee and they'll be lucky to make $50,000 a year.

Think about that for a minute. Williams can probably make $2m-$3m before he leaves college. If Joe Linebacker leaves college and gets a job paying $80,000 a year ... well, he has to work about 20 years before he makes what Williams can before he turns 21 years old.

This conversation has many levels. Your lineman at Rice or San Jose State are one level of this. Your star QBs and WRs - pimped out at every turn by their school - are on a completely elevated level. Imagine what Tim Tebow or Johnny Football would now be worth in college? I'd guess $5m a year. Maybe more. If they aren't fools, that is generational wealth.

There's only so many in those price points, obviously, but, if you're one of the lucky, hell yeah cash in while the iron is hot. Football players are all one fluke play from not being football players.

In the job market (and being a star college player is a job) you're worth what somebody is willing to pay you. Caleb Williams wouldn't even answer the phone for $500.

There's the 99% of college football players ... and then there's the 'one percenters'. Their value is just different.

[Ship69]

Not sure I agree with you on this one. At the P5 level, the major donors are, well, mega ego maniacs. They aren't people used to losing in anything. The allure of buying the next collegiate Tim Tebow, etc., is an awful lot to walk away from. It's why coaches are by and large so dispensable. The next great one is (could be) just a big offer away. Until, of course, he flops. And then the next great one is just another giant check away. Hell, they buy some of them out for $15m just to go away.

This weekend is a great example. The heavy brass at Alabama vs the heavy brass at Texas. Can you imagine the money flowing in to these two programs? I think we look at giving a college player a million dollars as insanity. To these tycoons it's chump change. Winning games like this one is worth every cent to these types of donors.

The top of the P5 is in a completely different stratosphere compared to the rest of the NCAA. Those 8-10 teams might as well be a professional league.

End of the day schools know what winning does. It generates boatloads of cash.

D1 is a completely different game. Pat Ryan has been prepared to donate $400 million toward a new football stadium at Northwestern (although we'll see where that goes after the hazing scandal) and has donated a total of about $800 million to the school. If any of our PSAC schools received a donation fo even a tenth of that it would change the entire direction of the institution. And he's doing it at a school that doesn't have much of a football history. Not all of the big D1 schools have a Ryan, but they probably have a dozen or more mini-Ryans to keep the coffers full. When I think of what a gift of even a few million could do for the student aid picture at Ship, it's irritating. At Penn State they're now busy bombarding my brother, who has paid thousands for season tickets there over the past couple of decades, with appeals for NIL cash.

[Fightingscot82]

Well, I have two degrees. I've been in the work force for 20-some years. And, I by no means have 'generational wealth'.

I agree with Caleb Williams. The reigning Heisman winner and star QB at USC (Hollywood) is worth WAY more than $500. That offer is missing quite a few zeros. These guys aren't there for the 'betterment of college football players'. They are there to get paid. These stars can now make millions of dollars before they leave campus. Blow out a knee and they'll be lucky to make $50,000 a year.

Think about that for a minute. Williams can probably make $2m-$3m before he leaves college. If Joe Linebacker leaves college and gets a job paying $80,000 a year ... well, he has to work about 20 years before he makes what Williams can before he turns 21 years old.

This conversation has many levels. Your lineman at Rice or San Jose State are one level of this. Your star QBs and WRs - pimped out at every turn by their school - are on a completely elevated level. Imagine what Tim Tebow or Johnny Football would now be worth in college? I'd guess $5m a year. Maybe more. If they aren't fools, that is generational wealth.

There's only so many in those price points, obviously, but, if you're one of the lucky, hell yeah cash in while the iron is hot. Football players are all one fluke play from not being football players.

In the job market (and being a star college player is a job) you're worth what somebody is willing to pay you. Caleb Williams wouldn't even answer the phone for $500.

There's the 99% of college football players ... and then there's the 'one percenters'. Their value is just different.

I think your description is right - my opinion is that eventually the big donors will feel they don't have a return on their investment and find other ways to throw money at the programs. There's always going to be a new team facility "needed." Maybe this is just for the mega NIL stuff. Guaranteed money is stupid - especially for minimal return on that money. A player being able to make a paid celebrity appearance is exactly what NIL should be about. Several Penn State football players were gifted Tesla Model 3's that are wrapped with some sort of advertising for the donor's business. This is also why Pitt and Penn State struggled to get up and running with NIL programs - they lack the super rich booster zealots in search of Heismans and first round picks. They want winning and championships.

[Ship69]

I think your description is right - my opinion is that eventually the big donors will feel they don't have a return on their investment and find other ways to throw money at the programs. There's always going to be a new team facility "needed." Maybe this is just for the mega NIL stuff. Guaranteed money is stupid - especially for minimal return on that money. A player being able to make a paid celebrity appearance is exactly what NIL should be about. Several Penn State football players were gifted Tesla Model 3's that are wrapped with some sort of advertising for the donor's business. This is also why Pitt and Penn State struggled to get up and running with NIL programs - they lack the super rich booster zealots in search of Heismans and first round picks. They want winning and championships.

It seems to me the NIL deal has the potential to cause team problems. Watched "Swamp Kings" on Netflix this week, and it was clear some of the Florida players were getting tired of all the focus on Tim Tebow by the time he reached his senior year. You gotta wonder how it could have gone if Tebow had been getting several million in NIL money to go along with all the attention while some of the other players got a pittance. The potential to split teammates and destroy morale is there, especially if your team drops a couple of games.

[Fightingscot82]

It seems to me the NIL deal has the potential to cause team problems. Watched "Swamp Kings" on Netflix this week, and it was clear some of the Florida players were getting tired of all the focus on Tim Tebow by the time he reached his senior year. You gotta wonder how it could have gone if Tebow had been getting several million in NIL money to go along with all the attention while some of the other players got a pittance. The potential to split teammates and destroy morale is there, especially if your team drops a couple of games.

Never thought about that.

[EdinboroFB]

Ya, but when was the last time you saw 80k ppl show up for a god damn chemistry experiment. Why, dont you stick the bow tie up your ass.


Colorado home opener saturday....Tickets on the ESPN schedule have tickets "as low as" $335.


JMU is a 6.5 pt favorite at UVA the last time I looked.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Ya, but when was the last time you saw 80k ppl show up for a god damn chemistry experiment. Why, dont you stick the bow tie up your ass.


Colorado home opener saturday....Tickets on the ESPN schedule have tickets "as low as" $335.


JMU is a 6.5 pt favorite at UVA the last time I looked.

Coach Sam Winters was way ahead of his time.

Ding. F#ckin'. Dong.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Ya, but when was the last time you saw 80k ppl show up for a god damn chemistry experiment. Why, dont you stick the bow tie up your ass.


Colorado home opener saturday....Tickets on the ESPN schedule have tickets "as low as" $335.


JMU is a 6.5 pt favorite at UVA the last time I looked.

Colorado had the biggest TV draw in all of college football last week and was also the 4th best ratings broadcast ever for Fox Sports (college football). Not bad for a noon game.