Should Jamestown be accepted into the NSIC?

[CollegeFBGuy]

We'll need to see a lot more mergers - ie UTRGV and PA school mergers. The enrollment cliff is coming, a lot more options and a lot more money for no college education or trade school education than 4 year route for a lot of majors.

The 2 year tech programs are tough to beat, for many students, lately. The 2 year option with strong earnings opportunities, on the job training and internships that are set up right out of high school, make sense for many. (I can’t remember if I shared this here already, so I apologize if I did)…we recently toured NDSCS in Wahpeton and their programs and paths to careers are pretty impressive. There are companies offering big $ for these young adults to go to school and be committed to working for them.

I am hearing way more support and emphasis on the tech programs than I ever did, say over the last 15-25 years. Everyone “needing” to go to a 4 year school, is not a big deal like it was when I graduated. That will affect enrollment and $

[Millsy]

One needs to remember that when these schools were founded, kids coming out of high school weren't as "mobile" as they are today, hence the regional options. And a lot of these schools were founded for very specific reasons. BSU, in particular, was founded as a regional teachers college, as were a lot of the MnSCU schools. They were set up to provide their areas with teachers from the local/regional population. Over time, these schools have morphed into full colleges and have become major drivers of the local economies. But, society has changed and kids/families have become more mobile, so kids leave the rural areas for the bigger, or dare I say, more "glamourous" schools. This leads to the population shift we are seeing in rural areas (among other issues).

And building on CollegeFBGuy's comment, I was talking with a friend of mine the other day, his son is looking at a two year degree. His son has friends that are in their first year of a two year welding program, and they already have offers of $40+ an hour when they are done.

[SW_Mustang]

[QUOTE=CollegeFBGuy;n800787]

And yet, Minnesota West seems to continually have issues drawing people "close" to them, as is an issue that plagues SMSU. Crookston is "close" to Fargo-Moorhead which is likely causing them issues too. To be fair to Bemidji, BSU and NWTC share administrations (as mentioned) so I've always thought of NWTC as the two-year arm of BSU. Oak Hills is just sort of "there."

Oak Hills, in Bemidji, is a private Christian school that has less than a few hundred students. I don’t think they affect too much as far as “too many options” in the area. They have always been small and will likely always remain small. 10:1 student to faculty ratio is very small.

Very tiny school that is not going to appeal to the majority of people, but another college nonetheless.

Beautiful campus though.

[SW_Mustang]

The 2 year tech programs are tough to beat, for many students, lately. The 2 year option with strong earnings opportunities, on the job training and internships that are set up right out of high school, make sense for many. (I can’t remember if I shared this here already, so I apologize if I did)…we recently toured NDSCS in Wahpeton and their programs and paths to careers are pretty impressive. There are companies offering big $ for these young adults to go to school and be committed to working for them.

I am hearing way more support and emphasis on the tech programs than I ever did, say over the last 15-25 years. Everyone “needing” to go to a 4 year school, is not a big deal like it was when I graduated. That will affect enrollment and $

It's the way to go. They are even becoming a bigger option for people who want to save on a 4-year degree as they can get 2 years of roughly the same education at half the cost.

I'm even considering dropping the current career path and paying my way through to get some trade education in like welding or something. My original plan was to go to LSC before I ended up staying home eith SMSU. They have such a nice modern campus, and even expanded into downtown.

[wscsuperfan]

Since this thread is about the membership of the NSIC....here was MIAA Commish Mike Racy from a Monday interview. Mike is very pro-change with regard to the football playoffs and bracket..and is very pro-MIAA, which he should be since he's got a strong conference and he runs it. Anyway, he's asked about expansion around 20:38. He provides the vision of the MIAA. I enjoy listening to Mike share info like this.
https://youtu.be/O93V3Yoer2E?si=-M2h8k8ScE46uGzs

A piece from a NWMST sports writer with his thoughts on MIAA expansion. Some unrealistic, but interesting, thoughts.

http://www.maryvilleforum.com/sports..._medium=social


If I were in charge of MIAA expansion.......
by Jon Dykstra, Maryville Forum

I have long said that MIAA expansion is not something I want because of the potential to water-down the league and because I value non-conference football games for both the fun of seeing someone new and their ability to help with playoff positioning.

That belief is why I think that a 10-team conference is ideal for football because it allows for a full round-robin 9-week regular season to determine a true conference champion, plus two non-conference weeks to position teams for the playoffs if they are contenders or to find wins if they are in the conference cellar.

I still think that is the best format and what I'd want to see Division II do, but I understand why that is not realistic in today's eat-or-be-eaten climate of college athletics.

We are seeing it at the highest level right now with the Pac-12 and Big Ten and Big 12. A couple years ago, the Pac-12 could have expanded and become the third-most powerful conference in college football, but they didn't like the fit of the other Big 12 schools so they didn't do it and now the Big 12 has turned the tables.

The more member schools, the more powerful the conference and while I hope Division II never ends up like Division I where it is all driven by money, money and competitive advantage are always going to be a piece of it.

So my new favorite solution for the MIAA is 16 football schools and 20 total schools.

Having 16 in football and two 8-team divisions allows for seven divisional weeks. If the conference is divided into North and South Divisions, that significantly cuts back on travel costs.

The season would begin with a non-conference week where schools can find an opponent to either build that playoff resume or get a win. Having to find only one non-conference game each year would hopefully lower the strain on athletic directors to fill a schedule with multiple non-conference weeks.

The second and third week of the season are crossover games between divisions. Those games rotate each year, ensuring that a 4-year player is guaranteed to play every member school once in his four seasons.

Week 4 through Week 10 is the divisional portion of the schedule. When this divisional round-robin is over, the teams are ranked based on divisional record with head-to-head and conference record being the tiebreakers.

That leads to the aspect of this format that is my favorite with championship week. Unlike the FBS conference championship week, the week isn't limited to the top teams in each division playing each other. The best teams would play, the second-best, the third-best and so on. The North teams would host one year and the South the next so athletic directors can know if they have a home game on Week 11 or not.

This allows the best teams to get another quality opponent on their schedule to build that playoff resume. It also allows the non-playoff teams a quality opponent and what should be an evenly matched game going into the offseason.

For basketball, it would simply be a round-robin schedule for 19 games, then you would play each team in your 4-team pod a second time. The pods would be set up to cut down on travel for those home-and homes. For example, Northwest Missouri State, Missouri Western, Washburn and Emporia State could form one pod to keep those rivalries twice a year, but cut down on travel.

The other sports would simply depend on what schools sponsor which sports with odd numbers of teams, they all are different, but more schools give them more options to do divisions as well.

So -- who are the teams that I think should want to join this new super-MIAA and who do I think the super-MIAA should covet? Here are candidates in my eyes.

The Big Dogs

Commissioner Mike Racy has talked openly about the MIAA positioning itself for Division I schools that may have had enough of the arms race in D1 and want to drop down and compete for national championships in Division II.

In the MIAA's footprint, two programs stand out as teams not competitive in most of their Division I sports that could drop down immediately and become contenders. They also happen to be in the two biggest cities in the northern part of the footprint -- the University of Missouri-Kansas City and the University of Nebraska-Omaha. Both universities are similar in size to Central Oklahoma.

UMKC and UNO are not competitive for national championships in Division I and never will be. A drop down to Division II makes them the big dogs in the yard.

Racy has spoken about how adding Newman and Arkansas-Fort Smith got the MIAA into the Wichita and Fort Smith markets and how important that was.

For the Mavericks and Roos, they sell the move down by adding football. Omaha has a proud tradition and bringing the sport back and returning to the MIAA would be massive. Being abel to have Kansas City's football team would be huge for UMKC.

Expanding the Footprint

The divisional format's ability to cut down on travel would allow the MIAA to expand the footprint without adding as severe financial implications.

In the north, those schools are from the Northern Sun Intercollegiate Conference -- an elite Division II brand in its own right, but could the divisional schedule make the move worth it for the southernmost schools.

The three that stand out are Wayne State in Wayne, Nebraska and Sioux Falls and Augustana, both in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Convincing any to leave a good thing in the Northern Sun may be hard, but getting into the Sioux City and Sioux Falls areas would be exciting for the league and trigger some more I-29 rivalries. Augustana is an affiliate member in men's tennis.

The south is the most obvious expansion route because it's what the league has consistently been doing with the Oklahoma schools and now Arkansas-Fort Smith.

The Great American Conference is the league to find candidates in. Harding is the school I"d look at. A couple years ago wen Northwest played a playoff game there, I had Harding fans asking about possible MIAA expansion because they wanted in. Harding football is always competitive and the school would be a strong addition. Harding is an affiliate member in men's tennis.

Arkansas Tech is the other northernmost Arkansas school and could be a candidate. Ouachita Baptist and Henderson State have one of Division II's best rivalries and would expand the conference further south, but would be fun to add. Ouachita is an affiliate member in wrestling and men's tennis.

Welcome Back

Similar to Colorado in the Big 12, here are some options who could return to the MIAA.

The University of Missouri-St. Louis would make a ton of sense as a non-football member. They have been very good in the GLVC in basketball recently and may be ready to return to the top league in the country.

Truman State is another school that left for the easier environment of the GLVC. A return of the Hickory Stick rivalry could be fun if they think they are ready for a return.

Drury University as a non-football member would be a tremendous addition as well. Missouri S&T would be another potential return.

[Matt Witwicki]

A piece from a NWMST sports writer with his thoughts on MIAA expansion. Some unrealistic, but interesting, thoughts.

http://www.maryvilleforum.com/sports..._medium=social


If I were in charge of MIAA expansion.......
by Jon Dykstra, Maryville Forum

I have long said that MIAA expansion is not something I want because of the potential to water-down the league and because I value non-conference football games for both the fun of seeing someone new and their ability to help with playoff positioning.

That belief is why I think that a 10-team conference is ideal for football because it allows for a full round-robin 9-week regular season to determine a true conference champion, plus two non-conference weeks to position teams for the playoffs if they are contenders or to find wins if they are in the conference cellar.

I still think that is the best format and what I'd want to see Division II do, but I understand why that is not realistic in today's eat-or-be-eaten climate of college athletics.

We are seeing it at the highest level right now with the Pac-12 and Big Ten and Big 12. A couple years ago, the Pac-12 could have expanded and become the third-most powerful conference in college football, but they didn't like the fit of the other Big 12 schools so they didn't do it and now the Big 12 has turned the tables.

The more member schools, the more powerful the conference and while I hope Division II never ends up like Division I where it is all driven by money, money and competitive advantage are always going to be a piece of it.

So my new favorite solution for the MIAA is 16 football schools and 20 total schools.

Having 16 in football and two 8-team divisions allows for seven divisional weeks. If the conference is divided into North and South Divisions, that significantly cuts back on travel costs.

The season would begin with a non-conference week where schools can find an opponent to either build that playoff resume or get a win. Having to find only one non-conference game each year would hopefully lower the strain on athletic directors to fill a schedule with multiple non-conference weeks.

The second and third week of the season are crossover games between divisions. Those games rotate each year, ensuring that a 4-year player is guaranteed to play every member school once in his four seasons.

Week 4 through Week 10 is the divisional portion of the schedule. When this divisional round-robin is over, the teams are ranked based on divisional record with head-to-head and conference record being the tiebreakers.

That leads to the aspect of this format that is my favorite with championship week. Unlike the FBS conference championship week, the week isn't limited to the top teams in each division playing each other. The best teams would play, the second-best, the third-best and so on. The North teams would host one year and the South the next so athletic directors can know if they have a home game on Week 11 or not.

This allows the best teams to get another quality opponent on their schedule to build that playoff resume. It also allows the non-playoff teams a quality opponent and what should be an evenly matched game going into the offseason.

For basketball, it would simply be a round-robin schedule for 19 games, then you would play each team in your 4-team pod a second time. The pods would be set up to cut down on travel for those home-and homes. For example, Northwest Missouri State, Missouri Western, Washburn and Emporia State could form one pod to keep those rivalries twice a year, but cut down on travel.

The other sports would simply depend on what schools sponsor which sports with odd numbers of teams, they all are different, but more schools give them more options to do divisions as well.

So -- who are the teams that I think should want to join this new super-MIAA and who do I think the super-MIAA should covet? Here are candidates in my eyes.

The Big Dogs

Commissioner Mike Racy has talked openly about the MIAA positioning itself for Division I schools that may have had enough of the arms race in D1 and want to drop down and compete for national championships in Division II.

In the MIAA's footprint, two programs stand out as teams not competitive in most of their Division I sports that could drop down immediately and become contenders. They also happen to be in the two biggest cities in the northern part of the footprint -- the University of Missouri-Kansas City and the University of Nebraska-Omaha. Both universities are similar in size to Central Oklahoma.

UMKC and UNO are not competitive for national championships in Division I and never will be. A drop down to Division II makes them the big dogs in the yard.

Racy has spoken about how adding Newman and Arkansas-Fort Smith got the MIAA into the Wichita and Fort Smith markets and how important that was.

For the Mavericks and Roos, they sell the move down by adding football. Omaha has a proud tradition and bringing the sport back and returning to the MIAA would be massive. Being abel to have Kansas City's football team would be huge for UMKC.

Expanding the Footprint

The divisional format's ability to cut down on travel would allow the MIAA to expand the footprint without adding as severe financial implications.

In the north, those schools are from the Northern Sun Intercollegiate Conference -- an elite Division II brand in its own right, but could the divisional schedule make the move worth it for the southernmost schools.

The three that stand out are Wayne State in Wayne, Nebraska and Sioux Falls and Augustana, both in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Convincing any to leave a good thing in the Northern Sun may be hard, but getting into the Sioux City and Sioux Falls areas would be exciting for the league and trigger some more I-29 rivalries. Augustana is an affiliate member in men's tennis.

The south is the most obvious expansion route because it's what the league has consistently been doing with the Oklahoma schools and now Arkansas-Fort Smith.

The Great American Conference is the league to find candidates in. Harding is the school I"d look at. A couple years ago wen Northwest played a playoff game there, I had Harding fans asking about possible MIAA expansion because they wanted in. Harding football is always competitive and the school would be a strong addition. Harding is an affiliate member in men's tennis.

Arkansas Tech is the other northernmost Arkansas school and could be a candidate. Ouachita Baptist and Henderson State have one of Division II's best rivalries and would expand the conference further south, but would be fun to add. Ouachita is an affiliate member in wrestling and men's tennis.

Welcome Back

Similar to Colorado in the Big 12, here are some options who could return to the MIAA.

The University of Missouri-St. Louis would make a ton of sense as a non-football member. They have been very good in the GLVC in basketball recently and may be ready to return to the top league in the country.

Truman State is another school that left for the easier environment of the GLVC. A return of the Hickory Stick rivalry could be fun if they think they are ready for a return.

Drury University as a non-football member would be a tremendous addition as well. Missouri S&T would be another potential return.

Yup...John stops over and visits our Sunday night show weekly and enters thoughts like this into our comments..and is a friend to our site, etc. Good guy. That said, John's interest in a 10 team league kinda goes counter to where Mike Racy is seemingly wanting to take their league. But he absolutely lays out some interesting scenarios here, for sure. I haven't gotten any word that the Sioux Falls schools are being courted, but I can understand why John would mention them here when painting with a broad brush. I do think teams like WT and Midwestern State could enter the chat also (if they haven't already) for MIAA expansion....but flirting and having "all in" kinda interest is what needs to be measured by the MIAA. Good read..and things to keep at eye out for.

[NSU4LIFE]

The 2 year tech programs are tough to beat, for many students, lately. The 2 year option with strong earnings opportunities, on the job training and internships that are set up right out of high school, make sense for many. (I can’t remember if I shared this here already, so I apologize if I did)…we recently toured NDSCS in Wahpeton and their programs and paths to careers are pretty impressive. There are companies offering big $ for these young adults to go to school and be committed to working for them.

I am hearing way more support and emphasis on the tech programs than I ever did, say over the last 15-25 years. Everyone “needing” to go to a 4 year school, is not a big deal like it was when I graduated. That will affect enrollment and $

Highly recommend NDSCS. 10-15 years ago if have been sad if my kids decided to go to a two year school, now, I'd be absolutely thrilled about them making such a responsible choice. (Dependant on what they choose to do, of course)

[SW_Mustang]

Highly recommend NDSCS. 10-15 years ago if have been sad if my kids decided to go to a two year school, now, I'd be absolutely thrilled about them making such a responsible choice. (Dependant on what they choose to do, of course)

Science is a great school. Bonus points for having football too.

Lots of great options for 2-years in the MW.

[zimmy21]

Yup...John stops over and visits our Sunday night show weekly and enters thoughts like this into our comments..and is a friend to our site, etc. Good guy. That said, John's interest in a 10 team league kinda goes counter to where Mike Racy is seemingly wanting to take their league. But he absolutely lays out some interesting scenarios here, for sure. I haven't gotten any word that the Sioux Falls schools are being courted, but I can understand why John would mention them here when painting with a broad brush. I do think teams like WT and Midwestern State could enter the chat also (if they haven't already) for MIAA expansion....but flirting and having "all in" kinda interest is what needs to be measured by the MIAA. Good read..and things to keep at eye out for.

The fact that he thinks Omaha or UMKC would leave D1 is a bit of a reach. Nobody benefits from dropping a class.

[Matt Witwicki]

The fact that he thinks Omaha or UMKC would leave D1 is a bit of a reach. Nobody benefits from dropping a class.

What happens if a program is drowning due to a move that should've have been done?

I'd think a drop for UMC or Western IL....or someone similar..and the ability to maybe compete at a lower level would be a good thing instead of "nobody benefits".

[Stanger86]

The fact that he thinks Omaha or UMKC would leave D1 is a bit of a reach. Nobody benefits from dropping a class.

Morningside hasn't benefitted?

[SW_Mustang]

The fact that he thinks Omaha or UMKC would leave D1 is a bit of a reach. Nobody benefits from dropping a class.

Several examples to prove this wrong. Many, even.

Just because a school is D1 doesn't mean they belong there. Western IL is a prime example.

That was the point of divisions in the first place, but it's out the window now with every commuter college believing they are SEC material.

[Purple Mav Man]

The fact that he thinks Omaha or UMKC would leave D1 is a bit of a reach. Nobody benefits from dropping a class.

I won’t pile on with the examples as they’ve been laid out. But this is where, in my opinion, your infatuation with D1 has clouded your logic.

[laker]

I won’t pile on with the examples as they’ve been laid out. But this is where, in my opinion, your infatuation with D1 has clouded your logic.

Birmingham Southern, Centenary (LA) and Hartford all dropped from D1 to D3. Idaho dropped from FCS to FBS. All were correct in doing so and more should.

[SW_Mustang]

We have 100+ pages of thread basically stating that Jamestown has nothing to gain by moving up, and everyone else in the conference is worse for it. Why can't that logic be applied to D1? Once someone crosses the magical line, it's just automatically better, exclusively? Zero risk of drawbacks?

I love non-FCS D1 sports as much as the next guy, but D1 has become so watered down because they're letting in the Omaha's and UMKC's of the world. It's embarrassing.

Crookston has everything to gain by dropping a division. When Hartford went D3, the backlash was hilarious. People couldn't be bothered to show up to games, but they dang sure had an opinion on the classification.